[UPDATED: The 33 written questions were ruled out of order on Monday, so they are no longer part of the public record. I have removed them from this post. This is not censorship, this is an attempt to accurately reflect the public record. You can still see most of the questions on YK1's website.]
[A few words of explanation: This is a transcript from our legislative assembly. Mr. Hawkins and Ms. Lee are representatives for my community and were present at Wednesday night's meeting. Mr. Dent is the minister of education. Written questions are formal requests for information, and the department must respond in writing within a certain amount of time. Typically, written questions come in groups of one to five questions.]
Member’s Statement On Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Much of the situation we are facing in [Name of town withheld] with the two school boards can be attributed, to some extent, to the way in which we fund the boards. The more students the board has enrolled, the more funding the board will receive to deliver programs. ECE continues to think of students as commodities. Mr. Speaker, I do not agree. However, if it’s the only way to get a message to the Minister, then so be it. Then if ogres can be like onions, students can be like commodities, Mr. Speaker. So students need investment just like commodities and they need stability to make sense. To illustrate my point, Mr. Speaker, I could draw comparisons to the stock market. Every once in a while there is market disruption, like a fire or school falling off it’s piles. Until this disruption is dealt with, all other schools will not see any new investment. Every once in a while a new product, or school, comes on the market. Everyone wants one; it has shiny bells and all the whistles. It doesn’t matter that there is a perfectly good product or school just down the road; everyone wants the new product until the next one comes along. Every once in a while a new concept or an idea comes along and soon everyone is copying it or modifying it until the great idea or concept comes along. Every once in a while the government decides it needs to meddle in the market, also known as market disruption, Mr. Speaker. The usual consequences of this is one sector of the market will suffer at the expense of the other. You know, Mr. Speaker, although the stock market has good and bad days, in the long run it is stable and usually corrects itself. The problem with the Minister’s solution is that it does not allow the market to correct itself.
We have two strong, excellent school boards, Mr. Speaker, here in [Name of town withheld]. That’s a wonderful thing. What I worry about is the ability of the public system to stay competitive and relevant if it loses one-sixth of its programming space. I’m also concerned with the inability of the Minister to clearly articulate his expectations to both the public and Catholic school board. If his mind was made up that the only situation for the public school board to lease one of their schools to the Catholic school board, he should have told somebody in September; certainly instead of spreading his letter here recently and creating such drama and hysteria as he has done as of late. Mr. Speaker, I will have questions for the Minister at the appropriate time. Thank you.
---Applause
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.
[EDITED: Conversation then turned to other topics]
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Handley. Oral questions. The honourable Member for [Name of town withheld] Centre, Mr. Hawkins.
MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In my Member’s statement today, I spoke about schools. Schools are about children, Mr. Speaker. Now when I have expectations for my own children, Mr. Speaker, I communicate the consequences of the actions immediately in a timely way. For example, I asked one monster to stop beating on the other one then and there, rather than wait. So can the Minister explain to me why he took so long to express and communicate his expectations and the consequences of them to the [Name of town withheld] school board at the end of February as opposed to explaining them in September? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Minister of Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.
Return To Question 465-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In meetings with the facilities committee, I started telling them what I thought they should be looking at as early as May and June. That continued through the summer and into August. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.
MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think this decision or this type of discussion certainly is two years overdue. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister be picking up the extra cost if YK1 decides to lease the school? Will they be picking up the extra costs associated with the bussing, the money spent to date for the planning of the next school year that we have now rendered useless and, further, will they be picking up the cost of the severance packages if staff have to be laid off? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not convinced that there would necessarily be cost for laying off a number of staff. I think that the amount of money that YK1 could use could be put into programming if they were to reduce some of the duplication overhead that they have in keeping an extra school open. It’s stated in the letter and I have always said to YK 1 that we are prepared to look at reasonable transition costs. We are obviously going to be wiling to discuss those. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Mr. Hawkins.
Supplementary To Question 465-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now the new formula defines school boards is to choke one by his new design of funding arrangement. Now, Mr. Speaker, if YK 1 does not give in to the new funding arrangement he has decreed on one school board, not equally across the Northwest Territories, what is the next plan?
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 465-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, the Member talked about consistency across the Northwest Territories. [Name of town withheld] has a unique situation. We have two public boards in [Name of town withheld] that collect taxes from the public. Most jurisdictions across Canada have gotten away from that. Alberta doesn’t allow local boards to collect taxes anymore, nor does Ontario. If we are going to talk about a consistent approach here, maybe we have to talk about removing local taxation ability and funding all boards across the Territories in the same manner. I am wiling to take a look at that. That would, however, have some impact here because the local boards have been using local taxation as a means to improve the services over and above what can be delivered in other communities. In fact, they have to spend the equivalent of somewhere between 103 and 105 percent of what they would have through the typical formula. So if it’s a consistent approach we want for [Name of town withheld], we can take a look at that. Right now, I agree, [Name of town withheld] is treated differently in our system.
Supplementary To Question 465-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MR. HAWKINS: I appreciate the Minister not answering the question, Mr. Speaker. This question really was about the fact that if YK 1 decides not to lease or give up a school, he has no school. I would like to hear what happens now. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 465-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With the letter having gone to YK 1 only last week, it’s my intention to leave some time to find out where the situation moves from here. I am quite prepared to meet with parties and have discussions, but I am not going to negotiate here in the House. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent. [EDITED: Conversation then turned to other topics.] Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.
Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MS. LEE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to pose my questions today to Minister Dent and it’s in regards to the Minister’s letter. I was to YK 1 school board. I was also at the meeting and I do expect that there will be a lot more questions and statements, from my point of view, in the coming days, at least for the remainder of session. The first question that I would like to ask the Minister is that in listening to the parents that were in attendance at the meeting, I think it’s very clear that the parents and staff and the board of YK 1 does not see really any upside in this scenario where the school will be leased rather than their proposal, which is to have YK 1 and YK 2 share. They share existing facilities throughout the city. The parents really feel that in order to accommodate YK 2, that YK 1 is put into a position where they seem to be in a losing position. So could the Minister indicate why this proposal is beneficial to YK 1? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Lee. The honourable Minister responsible for Education, Culture and Employment, Mr. Dent.
Return To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that whether YK 1 were to lease a school to YCS or not, it would improve the opportunities for education in [Name of town withheld] if they were to consolidate one school. So that’s the first point that I’ve been trying to make, is that whether YK 1 should consider consolidating schools in any case. I think that one of their schools should be shut. That would allow them to flow the extra money that they’re spending now on duplicated administration to important programs that they may have to offer kids, whether it’s immersion, cultural programs. There would be an opportunity for more supports for students with special needs, or perhaps enrichment programming. So right now they’re spending money keeping a school open and that’s all it's doing is paying to keep that school open rather than actually being used to improve education for kids. So that’s the first thing that I’ve said in my letter, is that they need to consider closing a school in order to improve education in the system for kids in [Name of town withheld]. If that school is then closed, why not lease it during the construction period to the other school system so that they can place their kids in there? Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent. Supplementary, Ms. Lee.
Supplementary To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MS. LEE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, obviously the possibility of any closure of a school is very emotional and hard on the children and we heard a lot about that and I would like to pose further questions on that. But another question that I want to follow up on at this time is there are lots of questions that were raised in the meeting about the utilization rates that ECE is proposing. The parents feel that ECE’s counting a lot of public areas that are essential for delivery of programs as one that needs to be filled or that Catholic school uses. For example, one of their schools has the Four Plus Program that should be counted, or that St. Joe’s portables are not being counted. So could the Minister explain more about how ECE counts the utilization rate? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The same standards are used across the Northwest Territories as are applied to YK1 and YCS. For instance, the program like the Four Plus is not counted in the utilization rate at Weledeh. So that is not included. If they have children in a program there like that, it is not counted as students using space in that school. So that doesn’t count in the rate. We are using the same rates across the Territories. For instance, when we are increasing the numbers of or decreasing the pupil-teacher ratio with the funding we have added this year for physical activity or trades, we don’t think that is going to increase the need for extra classrooms. That is specialized space, so it doesn’t cause a situation where there is going to be a shortage of classrooms.
YK1 doesn’t disagree that they have the equivalent of over 400 vacant seats using an 85 percent occupancy rate. The Government of the Northwest Territories Education, Culture and Employment says that schools shouldn’t operate over approximately 85 percent full. Using that number, YK1 still has in excess of 400 spaces available, the equivalent of a 22-person classroom of 20 classrooms. So there is a lot of flexibility that is in the system right now. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent. A short supplementary, Ms. Lee.
Supplementary To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MS. LEE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know the YK1 parents continue to feel that the Minister wrote this letter because he is under pressure from the other school board to do so and that there is not an upside for YK1 in doing that. They want to know why the two boards cannot be asked to come to an agreement and why the Minister is making the suggestions. I would like to know how he would answer to that. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For a number of years now, we have been working -- the Department of Education, Culture and Employment and I -- with both YCS and YK1 to try and facilitate some kind of discussion or agreement on how we could resolve the space issues in [Name of town withheld]. There was the facilities committee which provided me with the report. Following that, I had a facilitator come in to work with just the two boards. After that, I tried to work with the two boards. I have not been successful at negotiating any resolution to this. The situation now is that, this fall, we have a construction project that needs to get started. We need some resolution and some finality. What I have proposed is a method that I see that we can move forward during the process of construction. It is not as if this is going to satisfy YCS. It is not getting them any additional space at the end of the day. That has always been their concern. We are not offering to increase space. Our government has said that we are looking at [Name of town withheld] as one community. Until the whole community is at 85 percent occupancy in the schools, we are not going to build another school. So we are not increasing the amount of space. What we are doing, though, is saying that there is a lot of room for realignment of space. Because of the amount of space that is out there, there should be no reason for us to pay an increased cost to rent space for YCS students during the construction or to have to pay for the increased cost of administering students in several different locations. We think that, since the Government of the Northwest Territories paid for the facilities, during the construction project we should be able to take advantage of all of the facilities that are here. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent. Final, short supplementary, Ms. Lee.
Supplementary To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
MS. LEE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think there were lots of questions from parents who are very concerned about the changes and disruption that would incur for the students should an entire school be transferred. They couldn’t understand why in order to address one school’s needs, everybody else has to be disrupted. If there was -- and I say a big "if" because this is an ongoing question -- what measures would be expected to be taken to minimize disruption on all parties? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Lee. Mr. Dent.
Further Return To Question 470-15(5): Funding For [Name of town withheld] Schools
HON. CHARLES DENT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the letter I sent to YK1 makes clear, we are prepared to discuss reasonable transition costs as part of doing business. That is to be expected. But I understand that there are concerns from the parents who aren’t certain which school might be impacted if YK1 were to follow through on closing a school. But it is not uncommon in education today to see schools specialized. Parents all across Canada tend to move their kids to schools through a town that is farther away but within the same town. Parents move kids to different schools depending on the programs that are offered. I say that if YK1 were to consolidate their programming, they could offer more and better programming. I would expect that if they had a discussion with parents about what that programming would be, they might find that some parents are willing to consider moving their kids. Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Dent.
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